Open Access
Published: April 2026
Licence: CC BY-NC-4.0
Issue: Vol.21, No.1
00:57:26
April 2026
Cite this podcastGreen, D. (Host). (2026, April). Clowning: A seriously relational matter – Drew Bird in conversation with Deborah Green. JoCAT Podcasts.JoCAT. https://www.jocat-online.org/p-26-bird-green
Drew Bird
Clowning: A seriously relational matter – Drew Bird in conversation with Deborah Green
Join Drew Bird in conversation with Deborah Green as they embark upon a spiralling romp, a metaphoric Maypole dance (rather loosely) centred around Drew’s article, cowritten with Fabio Motta, titled ‘How can the clown inform play in dramatherapy facilitation?’ In this paper Drew and Fabio experiment with ways clowning and play may enhance our practice within the creative arts therapies. And in this podcast, Drew and Deborah repeatedly caper out and jig back in from this central axis, exploring vulnerability, presence, playfulness, animacy, ecotones, self-as-chorus, re-storying, negative capability, spontaneity, building tolerance for risk and uncertainty, safety (what the heck does that even mean...), the necessary co-habitation of levity and gravity… and more, as magic and mayhem invite pens to become rocketships and failure becomes lively fodder for alchemy.
You can read the article here:
Publications mentioned in the interview in order of appearance:
Gersie, A. (2016). Dramatherapists believe they must be both artist and therapist: An exploration. In S. Jennings & C. Holmwood (Eds.), Routledge international handbook of dramatherapy. Routledge.
Kapitan, L. (2023). Transforming power through cultural humility in the intercultural contact zone of art therapy. Art Therapy, 40(2), 61–67. https://doi.org/10.1080/07421656.2022.2131355
Hillman, J. (1975). Re‑visioning psychology. Harper & Row.
Levine, S. K. (2009). Trauma, tragedy, therapy: The arts and human suffering. Jessica Kingsley.
Clarkson, P. (2003). The therapeutic relationship (2nd ed.). Wiley.
Spinelli, E. (1989). The interpreted world: An introduction to phenomenological psychology. Sage.
de Castro, (2023). Clown: In conversation (2nd ed.). E. LeBank & D. Bridel (Eds.). Routledge.
Winterson, J. (1985). Orange is not the only fruit. Pandora Press.
Strand, S. (2022). The flowering wand: Rewilding the sacred masculine. Inner Traditions.
Strand, S. (2025). The body is a doorway: A memoir—A journey beyond healing, hope, and the human. Running Press.
Keats, J. (1958). The letters of John Keats (H.E. Rollins, Ed., Vol.1). Harvard University Press. (Original letter written December 21, 1817.)
Marion, J.-L. (2002). Being given: Toward a phenomenology of givenness (J.L. Kosky, Trans.). Stanford University Press.
Milton Erikson – Core principles of engaging in the client’s experience of the world to develop engagement in therapy.
Winnicott, D.W. (1971). Playing and reality. Tavistock.
About Drew Bird
Drew has been a dramatherapist for over 20 years. He is currently Associate Professor and Head of Creative Arts Therapies at the University of Melbourne, Australia. He was editor of the British Association of Dramatherapists Journal from September 2020 to March 2023. Recent research interests and publications have focused on autoethnography, arts-based research and clowning as a means to deepen understanding of the art of facilitation. He presents at conferences internationally. Drew’s background is in working with children and young people who have experienced trauma, adult mental health and community work.
Email: drew.bird@unimelb.edu.au