Figure 1: Conversations under the listening tree. 2022. Photo: R. Macfarlane.

Conversation under the listening tree: Bettina Evans speaks with Robert Macfarlane

July 2022

I arrive far too early for my meeting with Robert Macfarlane, which means I have got plenty of time to get nervous. Half a year ago it seemed a great idea to combine a visit to England to see friends with interviewing my favourite writer for the JoCAT. Now I feel sick in my stomach: what was I thinking – I have never interviewed a famous writer before! But thankfully before I can worry even more Robert arrives on his bike, jumps off, gives me a big smile and bear hug and we are off through the gates of the Porter’s Lodge into the immaculate gardens of Emmanuel College, Cambridge University. Robert does his best to put me at ease by introducing me to the trees he particularly likes; one is an old swamp cypress cooling its knobbly kneed roots in an ornamental lake. We settle on a wooden bench in the Fellow’s Garden under one of Robert’s favourite trees – a magnificent oriental plane tree.

Figure 2: The plane tree sanctuary. 2022. Photo: B. Evans.

The earl grey tea Robert has kindly brought along in a thermos settles my last nerves and our conversation flows easily.

When it is time for the interview, I pull out my paper with the carefully prepared and worded questions. But Robert continues the conversational style of our previous talk, so I take a deep breath and answer his questions, feeling utterly put on the spot to be an interviewee myself.

One of the many reasons why I love being a creative arts therapist is because creative arts therapy overlaps and connects with many fields of practice in the arts, social sciences and sciences. I relish the opportunity to talk with people who are masters in their field and whose knowledge and wisdom can enrich my understanding of the world and, through this, deepen and broaden my creative arts therapeutic and teaching practice. Robert, an academic, walker and writer on landscape, nature, place, people and language is one of those people [1]. I have long admired Robert’s work, which has been a major influence on creating and including nature-connected arts therapeutic aspects into the teaching program at Whitecliffe’s postgraduate and master’s degrees in creative arts therapy.

From a creative arts therapist’s point of view, I value his books because they are as multi-layered as life itself. A lot of his writing is set in the light of the everyday, on the surface of the earth that we know and see and can touch. But we also descend with him into blue ice caves sharp with bliss and fear and to the molten core where grief and love are alive. He is able to ‘stay with the trouble’ [2] of our complex world.

I will not comment on Robert’s writing myself, as there are many excellent book reviews and interviews with Robert available online.[3]

Robert’s work is an ever-growing rhizomatic and mycelial network, as his word-smithing has expanded into collaboration with film makers, visual artists and musicians. Together with illustrator and writer Jackie Morris he created the book ‘The Lost Words’ and the ‘Lost Spells’ [4]. Inspired by these books the folk-group ‘The Spell Songs’ was formed and produced two album based on those books [5].

Robert co-wrote the lyrics with musician and actor Johnny Flynn for the album ‘Lost in the Cedar Wood’ [6]. Johnny Flynn says that the song ‘Ten Degrees of Strange’ is about ‘escaping grief and being hounded by the sense of sorrow we all experience from time to time.’ [7]

Working together with film maker Jennifer Peedom resulted in a film called ‘River’, [8] foreshadowing Robert’s latest book in progress called ‘Is a River Alive?’

Acknowledgements

With many thanks to those who made this interview possible:
Rob Macfarlane for not only graciously agreeing to this interview but also providing some photos and the recording, as my phone went on strike.
Hilary Tapper for technical support and enthusiasm.
Deborah Green for editorial support and enthusiasm.
The JoCAT team for publishing it.

Endnotes

[1] A selection of Robert’s books: Mountains of the mind (2003); The wild places (2007); The old ways: A journey on foot (2012); Landmarks (2015); The lost words (2017); Underland: A deep-time journey (2019).  [back to place]

[2] Donna Harraway. (2016). Staying with the trouble-making kin in the Chtulucene.  [back to place]

[3] Samples of book reviews:  [back to place]
Underland: A deep-time Journey, The Guardian review
Landmarks, The Guardian review

Samples of filmed interviews:  [back to place]
Interview with Robert and author Barry Lopez
Interview with Robert and author Robin Wall-Kimmerer

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_oma3YP5NU  [back to place]

[5] ‘The Lost Words Blessing’, from the first album ‘Spell Songs’ [back to place]

[6] Music-video by clay-on-glass artist Lynn Tomlinson [back to place]

[7] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SrMcaZDOtQ [back to place]

[8] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efHe-VYtHzY [back to place]

Books mentioned in the interview in order of appearance:

Low, N. (2021). Uprising: Walking the Southern Alps of New Zealand. Text Publishing.

Macfarlane, R. (2016). Landmarks. Penguin.

Macfarlane, R. (2019). Underland: A deep time journey. Hamish Hamilton.

Macfarlane, R., & Morris, J. (2020). The lost spells. Hamish Hamilton.

Campbell, J., & Moyers B. (1991). The power of myth. Bantam Doubleday Dell.

Macfarlane, R. & Donwood, S. (2018). Ness. Hamish Hamilton.

Flynn, J. (2021). Lost in the cedar woods [album]. Transgressive Records.

Powers, R. (2018). The overstory. W.W. Norton and Co.